Up until recently, I have been under the assumption that Israel has been a kind ally to America, that is on the defensive from attacks by its violent Arab neighbors, and that the Arab states hated America because of its wealth.

What I'm about to say does not absolve neither Israel nor Palestine nor any other Middle Eastern state that uses terrorist action.

I met a professor on campus, a Palestinian Christian, who lived in Palestine for most of his life. He informed me about the lies that we are fed about Palestine, that it wasn't a country (he showed me his Palestinian birth certificate), that there's a Biblical mandate for the state of Israel, that Israel has been fighting a defensive war...I was shocked. This led me to research Zionism and I found out about AIPAC, the Israeli lobby to congress which has used aggressive tactics to keep Israel America's chief ally and recipient of aid and severely bias our media towards Israel (all media is biased, I know).

The truth I learned about Israel is that there is no Biblical mandate for jews to live there (although it's fine if they do, and they have lived there peacefully before the creation of the Israeli state)) that the state of Israel bulldozes Palestinian houses to build homes for Israelis, that the IDF has been extremely aggressive to Palestinian civilians, and that most of our foreign aid goes to support this apartheid.

I know you will be skeptical about this, but I invite you to see for yourself the motive expressed by the 9/11 hijackers to act.

9/11 Commission Report, p.147 wrote:

KSM's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel.

The entire Arab world is confused. Why are we supporting these Nazi-like tactics? Why aren't we helping the oppressed? Why aren't we standing up for the ideals that our nation sets forth. Sadly, this has led to much anger in the middle east, and allowed extremist groups such as Hamas to take power and perpetuate more violence in response to Israel's violation of human rights. Because of our repeated disregard to the Palestinian plight and our support of Israel, they have hated us.

Furthermore, Israel has not been a peaceful defensive state. Aside from provoking the Palestinian people by bulldozing their houses, preventing their access to work, and on occasion, murdering them, Israel has attacked American ships to hide the fact that they took the first steps in the Six Day War, a war that America says was defensive on the part of Israel. While AIPAC has attempted to cover up much of the story, the greatest testimony is from the survivors of the USS Liberty.

This is just opening the door. I don't have time to discuss all the atrocities that Israel has committed, but I suggest you research, AIPAC, the USS Liberty, and consider Palestinian Christians.
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I'm just going to make a quick observation to get us started, and then go do some research to more directly discuss the points you brought up.

The comment I wanted to make was this, and it is a bit of a continuation of what my last post in the thread in the Theology forum says. Anyway, basically this:
I think a lot of the reasoning or "theology" behind the modern Israelite policy stems from a misunderstanding of Deuteronomic and Conquest theology, an over-reaction to the exile, and is allowed to continue by the complete blind-spot the Jewish people have for Christ. I think if you look at their political policy as a continued "carrying out of the חרם" in Israel on all of the non-Israelites. It's basically Joshua all over again. And the same with the Deuteronomic law. They were disobedient the first time, were punished, and now they're going to make darn sure they don't fail again....so they are going to continue to do it until they "get it right".....of course, they missed Christ in the shuffle. And of course, Christians feel a sort of connection to the Jewish people, being the "Chosen people of God" and such.....and not that that's a bad thing, but I think it goes a bit far in general. Now, I am a proponent of practising all of the biblically mandated holidays that we as Christians label as "Jewish" (such as Passover, Feast of Booths), but not those (such as Purim or Hanukkah) which are not biblically proscribed, and in fact were post-exile inventions.

So yeah, to sum up, I think it's taking legitimate theological traditions from the old testament that Israel failed to obey, feeling the rejection and sting of punishment, overreacting to the punishment, missing Christ in the process, and now continuing to try to redo those earlier traditions in a wrong way/to a wrong extent. In effect, they're trying to "Get it right", but because they missed Christ, they can't get it right that way any longer.
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"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."

Well, sure, isn't everything you have here pretty accepted by now? (I haven't read Evan's reply.) I mean, I still hear the "Palestine was never a state" occasionally, but I thought most people had figured out that bit of propaganda already.

Personally, I don't think either Israel or the Palestinians are the bad guys here -- they both are bad guys. Israel simply has more money to kill people more systematically.

Pallando wrote:

Nazi-like tactics

Reductio ad Hitlerum, Godwin's law, etc. Avoid this silliness.
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http://www.againstmonopoly.org/ http://www.maplight.org/ http://change-congress.org/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiyyp9cZdY0

You can skip the beginning and see the two news stories yourself (about 5:00 min in) and see the American bias vs. International world.
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Um, wow. First, I didn't read every single word here. I read the first 4 posts, and skimmed through the rest.

What it seems like happened was you ran into this guy who took the far opposite side, you found some support for what he said and you completely abandoned the other side. Both sides have support. Both sides are twisted by the media.

Further, you are expressing strong anti-semetic views yourself. This is dangerous ground. Israel as a state and people do have a claim to the land. It is a God given claim. God made an unconditional promise to Abraham that his seed would have the land forever. Yes, Israel rejected their Messiah. Yes, God used that to graft the Gentile nations into the plan of Salvation, but God will graft Israel back in. The nation will be whole, and they will all turn to Christ.

The statements and promises God made to Abraham are not voided for any reason. They were unconditional and God cannot lie. Further, God said that whoever will bless Israel will be blessed. Whoever will curse Israel will be cursed. We have to be careful that we don't say "America stands for Justice." God stands for Justice. America has a depraved sense of justice. Yeah, we ARENT just. But abandoning Israel is not the answer. That is probably the only positive our nation has going for it right now.

We do not fear God. Sin is permissible. Right is called wrong. Wrong is called right. There is no shame. Sin is no longer done in darkness, but paraded openly. This is America. Is there anything positive to say about it? Rush tends to think that the American people, the true patriots, are still out there. That they won't let this stuff happen. Yeah, God's plan comes first, and eschatology is coming. Israel will win.

I got a little side-tracked, but Israel is God's people. He hath not cast them off. He will give them new hearts, and write His law on them so that they will all know Him. They, as Jews, have God-given right to the land.


-- tfj