So, in the hopes of starting a new theology thread (Sparty thanks for the prompt/reminder that this board exists), I thought I would start a discussion of Inclusivism. This also, ironically, bridges the gap to something I'm planning on talking about on my blog in the coming weeks (as in, I've started writing it...just haven't finished it). So here goes:

Do you think that there has been a recent rise in the belief in inclusivism in the the modern American church? Why or why not? What about inclusivism is so terrible, or is it?

Inclusivism here, is in the sense that others outside of the Christian Church can be saved. This is usually used to argue in favour of "people who have never heard the gospel, like, say, those cannibals in Indonesia...etc. etc..." being able to be saved by some unknown mystical outworking of the Holy Spirit.

Now, I'm going to start by saying (if it wasn't already obvious) that I am very much against the very notion of inclusivism. But I'll discuss more why later if we get something going.
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"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."

Well, just in point of fact, the Church is not what saves people - the God saves people INTO the body of Christ. So I do not think that you need to be a member of a Church in order to be saved. But in your post it is pretty hard to say anything other than "inclusivism is 100% bad" without sounding like I am preaching from the church of Oprah, if you get my drift. You cannot be saved and be outside the body of Christ - that is for sure.
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- iemsparticus

"My food is problematic..."

Um. . . . I don't think that's the point. . . . I think the basic question is, "Are there exceptions to the example given in Romans?" How can they hear without a preacher?

No, the church doesn't save people. However, the Bible says that God uses those in the church to get the message out. So, can someone who's never heard the Biblical message of salvation become a Christian? I think that's the idea anyway. Can a person be saved by coming to conclusions from nature for example? Like the cannibals in Indonesia. . . .
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January 2011

"What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Well... as far as "Can a person be saved by coming to conclusions from nature for example?" - they are condemned due to their unbelief based on observable things such as nature. (Romans 1:19-20)... they are not saved by those things. They are saved by the workings of God - and the way He chooses to do this is by His Word. Whether that is through someone reading the Bible, or by someone preaching the Gospel... we are saved through His Word.

As far as "Inclusivism here, is in the sense that others outside of the Christian Church can be saved." My post was merely a caution due to the wording here. We are not a part of the body of Christ UNTIL we are saved... so everyone who is saved is saved while outside of the body of Christ. I was pointing out that we are saved INTO the body of Christ.
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- iemsparticus

"My food is problematic..."

Yeah, I apologise...my wording there, was as I now see, both poor and terrible. Varda clarified it brilliantly. Hmm...I think I've just thought of another way to put this:
Can general revelation alone be enough to bring someone to saving faith?
Or is some form of Special Revelation needed?
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"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."

General revelation condemns us. Special revelation saves us.
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- iemsparticus

"My food is problematic..."

I would agree.
Now, the thing that seems to stick people: What about people who never had the "gospel" directly preached to them? What about the poor natives in the amazon?
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"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."

They're actually being shown a type of mercy. Because they're not the elect. Thus, if they had heard the Gospel, they'd be held accountable for rejecting it.
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January 2011

"What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Talon - have people read Romans 1:18-23 "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things."

They are guilty, according to this passage, of rejecting God. They are condemned by creation itself.

All of God's elect will receive special revelation, and be saved. All of them Those who never receive special revelation will not ever be saved, and were never God's elect.

God saving us is an incredible mercy. It may not seem fair to us that He would chose some and exclude others... but that is not the type of thinking that Christians should get themselves into. God would have been righteous in damning us all, would He not? The fact that even SOME of us are elect and saved is an incredible mercy.
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- iemsparticus

"My food is problematic..."

lol, the only non yes or no question is too vague, heh

Special revelation today has ended apart from the Word of God, correct? (no tongues, visions, etc)

I am not sure that, not being God, I can say for CERTAIN that there are absolutely never anymore visions and those types of things... I can't think of a passage in the Bible that you could point to and say that it NEVER happens anymore... but what we do know is that God uses the Gospel to save. Keep in mind, however, that non-elect are given the gospel as well - so the gospel ALONE isn't enough to save... nor does it encapsulate EVERYTHING that is special revelation.

The Holy Spirit is the one who gives us special revelation - it is a supernatural thing. Because of this I am really unable to give a great definition of it.

You define special revelation as the Word of God. I would have to disagree. If it WAS the Bible, any person that read it would then be saved.

If you are not referring to special revelation as that revelation in which God opens a person's spiritual eyes and saves them, we are talking about two different things and there is a misunderstanding. If you ARE referring to it as such, it cannot be the Word of God. The Holy Spirit USES the Bible... but the Bible isn't the actual enabler.

EDIT: As I look into it more... I concede the point that Special Revelation is the Bible... I took special revelation as HAVING to save you. It doesn't. However you CAN'T be saved without it.
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- iemsparticus

"My food is problematic..."

Well, I have to apologize. I setup for something, and had the post written, but since it is highly sensitive stuff, I started thinking...and figured I would change my mind. I wrote two different posts, and deleted them both. Sometimes my (maybe our?) love of theological debate overwhelms my common sense. This particular topic I was approaching too quickly, and it becomes very offensive, and so perhaps it isn't necessary.

Sorry. If interested, shoot me a message.

I think there might be a way of approaching this topic without it being extremely offensive, but I do agree that it is one of those things that is at the very least highly sensitive (particularly because people have such acutely sensitive beliefs about it, regardless of position). The question of the HS' activity today is, I think an important topic for discussion today though, because of such varied opinion (legitimate or otherwise), and a certain amount of orthodoxy would be nice to nail down.
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"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."