The Corellian Sector :: View topic

Hey, hi everyone.
I know I have not been on here in quite some time, but I'm back, however briefly, to give you an interesting quote, which I hope will inspire thought, if not actual discussion.

"If I were forced to choose between my country and my friend, I hope I would be brave enough to choose my friend." -E. B. Forester.

I'm not sure whether this really has more to do with philosophy, theology, or politics, but maybe trying to separate those three is pointless anyway.

It seems to me upon first consideration, that this guy has a great point. Why should we necessarily be more loyal to a (often rather vague, from our point of view) collection of people than to one individual who we have a personal (often unspoken) commitment to on some level, a friend?

Anyway, I'm tired and bored and need to get to bed, so have fun with this if you like, or ignore it as you please, and please forgive any silly errors and blame them on my weariness.
_________________
"Murdered by pirates is good!"

"Actors. Act-or. Act, or else." -Myself

Indeed. The concept of patriotism as a virtue is yet another invention that keeps people from thinking. There are no nations, no governments, no laws: just people in power and systems that are followed because they have historically been followed. The words that write our laws on paper only have power because people follow them. It would be a travesty to favor loyalty to something so ethereal as this over loyalty to a friend. It would also be bad.
_________________
http://www.againstmonopoly.org/ http://www.maplight.org/ http://change-congress.org/

Really? At what point does it become "ok" to fight for your country over your friend? Certainly when the country has the morally just side, and your friend doesn't. I will not harbor my best friend when I know he has committed murder and comes to my house. It would grieve my heart, and yet, I am biblically mandated to turn him in. Am I then choosing between my country and my friend?

If my friend decides that he is fighting for the South, and I believe that God says all human life is equal, do I join my friend in the South, or do I fight on the North where I may actually encounter my friend in battle?

What does one mean when they talk of choosing friend or country? Would I leave America to travel to China because my friend is moving over there?

We don't have allegiances period. We are Christians. Christ's. We do not hold to our friend if he has committed wrong. We do not support our country if it is in the wrong. We are always Christians first. If our friend and country are at odds, one must be wrong and we must choose the right. That is our only course of action.

TFJ wrote:

We don't have allegiances period. We are Christians. Christ's. We do not hold to our friend if he has committed wrong. We do not support our country if it is in the wrong. We are always Christians first. If our friend and country are at odds, one must be wrong and we must choose the right. That is our only course of action.

Well said. However, that being understood, I do think that the idea of "patriotism" is largely a nationalistic invention that can be first credited to the Romans and is exactly the sort of thing Christianity was historically opposed to. Like you said, we are Christians, and that is our only allegiance. So, we must side morally. But why does that mean we must "fight" in this sense at all? We are to be loyal to Christ, certainly, but how exactly does that play out in a situation of war, for instance? Here Cuth, I would have to say that looking to the early Christian martyrs would not be a bad place to start. We are to be as selfless and Christ honouring as possible, even when that means death. We obey the state only in those things that do not directly disobey the laws of Christ, and in that much, I, personally would have to say that getting involved in her (the state's) wars would have to fit into that (my caveat here would be when a purely, completely defensive war were invoked....but how often does that happen today in a Pax Romana based country). This is all to say: My view is that the government and its wars is not a place of mandate for the Christian.....that is not to say that war is always wrong, or that Christians who are in the armed forces are wrong for doing so....I'm not making that judgment. For me, I don't think it is something that we as Christians are mandated and or required to obey the government in, simply because the idea of spreading statehood and patriotism is in essense a less obvious form of Emperor worship: Something that the early Christians were infamous for opposing.
_________________
"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."

And yet Jesus instructs us to obey the government and respect those God has placed in authority over us. I think you need to be careful, Talon, with sentiments such as "For me, I don't think it is something that we as Christians are mandated and or required to obey the government in, simply because the idea of spreading statehood and patriotism is in essense a less obvious form of Emperor worship: Something that the early Christians were infamous for opposing."

We need to take our cues from God and the Bible, not from early christians. If there is a draft for a war you feel is morally wrong, then yes, you have grounds for refusal, but if there is a war you feel not morally wrong (even if you feel the war unwise) and you are drafted, is this not a case where we are commanded to obey? Perhaps taxes are a better example, s they are much more common. Recently, taxes raised, and I can definitely tell in my paycheck. I don't agree with this heavy taxing, I don't agree with the amount of bureaucrats we have instated which demands this heavy taxing, I don't agree with a lot that is going on in government (obviously, who does agree with everything?) and I have very strong objections to things like my tax money going to public schools which teach homosexuality as a perfectly acceptable alternate lifestyle, evolution as fact, and christianity as something which impedes the freedoms of others. Do I refuse to pay my taxes? No. I pay my taxes to the authority God has placed over me, and I vote in every election to try to change the horrible path our country has taken. A government is always going to be corrupt because humans are corrupt. You will never find a government that is 100% godly until the second coming. It is our duty to serve God and the authority He has elected over us (that includes Obama, God placed Obama in the position he is in) with the understanding that should the authority of men contradict the authority of God, we will always fight on the side of God even if it means our lives.

Now, when it comes to nation and friend, I would agree with TFJ. We fall on the side of God's law.
_________________
'Tis better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. Especially if it's a candle that smells like Christmas!!!!

Oh don't worry, I was not in the least saying not paying taxes, and etc.... In all probability what I wrote above is an overreaction to a perceived overemphasis on the part of general American Christianity at large. Case in point:
After the Mass. election results (which I was glad of, btw), all of my Christian friends who hold the view that we need to be eminently involved in politics/patriotic, etc. had statuses and such like "God bless America for making the right decision", "God's party is back.", "His mercy endures" and in response to someone saying that God doesn't have a political party "The problem you have is that you have faith in PEOPLE and not God's son, Jesus. He is the one you should have faith in."
My point is simply this: 1) Republicanism is not God's party, or the Christian party or anything else. 2) God does not have a political party. 3)Patriotism in the sense that it is modernly defined is nationlist. This was not necessarily the case in the 1700s...but it certainly is now. It is not a Christian idea. We need to be willing to die for Christ, not America, Russia, or any other country. This does not mean disobeying the government inasmuch as it is not asking us to disobey Torah. However, it also does not mean that we have to blindly support the government at all. If you look at Christ life, he was essentially un-involved with the government (Rome), and took no side on the matter. He does teach (when asked) that we should pay our taxes, but beyond this, it's really up to us. And if you look historically at God's people, there is a long history of standing seperate from the government. So, I'm doubting very much that we truly stand apart on this issue, and in all probability my above posts were overreactive (I tend to do that, as you know), but just know that my heart is not as far to one side as I may make it seem.

But, in case you had any doubts, I will lay out my political views here:
I am paleo-libertarian (of the Richard Maybury variety), law-abiding (and with a strong belief in law), and do believe in paying taxes. I do not believe in a draft, and would fight it, as it is unconsititutional. I belive national governments should be as small as possible, taxes should be minimal and only used to run the basic services (transportation, military). Ultimately, I would love to see a Swiss system of military militia (I believe this is closer to the original intent of the constitution). I do not believe major moral issues (abortion, gay marriage) should be solved by legislation, but instead by constitutional ammendment (so, I believe they did a good job with the gay marriage issue and civil rights, but not abortion), simply for the reason that legislation can be changed and rechanged with each new election, while ammendments are at least semi-permenant (they used to be much moreso). I do not believe in government programs. I do not agree with the existance of the IRS, or CIA constitutionally speaking....CIA is a little harder though...because it would be hard to live without it in today's world. I am a strong proponent of states rights, and think states should have the right to secede. I think getting involved in WWI was a bad idea, and in fact caused WWII. I am not as opposed to WWII, but think the way we got involved was not the best. There. My political beliefs in a nutshell...I am up for questions about them, but they are long and hard thought beliefs, and I'm not really in the mood to debate them at the moment (perhaps later).
_________________
"I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."

Author	Message
Cuthalion Gold Leader Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 931 Location: Most likely, seated somewhere with my laptop on my lap or on a table or desk in front of me.	Post subject: Hey! Discussion quote.
	Hey, hi everyone. I know I have not been on here in quite some time, but I'm back, however briefly, to give you an interesting quote, which I hope will inspire thought, if not actual discussion. "If I were forced to choose between my country and my friend, I hope I would be brave enough to choose my friend." -E. B. Forester. I'm not sure whether this really has more to do with philosophy, theology, or politics, but maybe trying to separate those three is pointless anyway. It seems to me upon first consideration, that this guy has a great point. Why should we necessarily be more loyal to a (often rather vague, from our point of view) collection of people than to one individual who we have a personal (often unspoken) commitment to on some level, a friend? Anyway, I'm tired and bored and need to get to bed, so have fun with this if you like, or ignore it as you please, and please forgive any silly errors and blame them on my weariness. _________________ "Murdered by pirates is good!" "Actors. Act-or. Act, or else." -Myself

Author	Message
sirhenry Marshal of the Imperial Air Force Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 100581 Location: Ceci n'est pas une emplacement.	Post subject:
	Indeed. The concept of patriotism as a virtue is yet another invention that keeps people from thinking. There are no nations, no governments, no laws: just people in power and systems that are followed because they have historically been followed. The words that write our laws on paper only have power because people follow them. It would be a travesty to favor loyalty to something so ethereal as this over loyalty to a friend. It would also be bad. _________________ http://www.againstmonopoly.org/ http://www.maplight.org/ http://change-congress.org/

Author	Message
TFJ Officer Joined: 14 Sep 2007 Posts: 276	Post subject:
	Really? At what point does it become "ok" to fight for your country over your friend? Certainly when the country has the morally just side, and your friend doesn't. I will not harbor my best friend when I know he has committed murder and comes to my house. It would grieve my heart, and yet, I am biblically mandated to turn him in. Am I then choosing between my country and my friend? If my friend decides that he is fighting for the South, and I believe that God says all human life is equal, do I join my friend in the South, or do I fight on the North where I may actually encounter my friend in battle? What does one mean when they talk of choosing friend or country? Would I leave America to travel to China because my friend is moving over there? We don't have allegiances period. We are Christians. Christ's. We do not hold to our friend if he has committed wrong. We do not support our country if it is in the wrong. We are always Christians first. If our friend and country are at odds, one must be wrong and we must choose the right. That is our only course of action.

Author	Message
The White Elf Squad Leader Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 507 Location: The Wind	Post subject:
	And yet Jesus instructs us to obey the government and respect those God has placed in authority over us. I think you need to be careful, Talon, with sentiments such as "For me, I don't think it is something that we as Christians are mandated and or required to obey the government in, simply because the idea of spreading statehood and patriotism is in essense a less obvious form of Emperor worship: Something that the early Christians were infamous for opposing." We need to take our cues from God and the Bible, not from early christians. If there is a draft for a war you feel is morally wrong, then yes, you have grounds for refusal, but if there is a war you feel not morally wrong (even if you feel the war unwise) and you are drafted, is this not a case where we are commanded to obey? Perhaps taxes are a better example, s they are much more common. Recently, taxes raised, and I can definitely tell in my paycheck. I don't agree with this heavy taxing, I don't agree with the amount of bureaucrats we have instated which demands this heavy taxing, I don't agree with a lot that is going on in government (obviously, who does agree with everything?) and I have very strong objections to things like my tax money going to public schools which teach homosexuality as a perfectly acceptable alternate lifestyle, evolution as fact, and christianity as something which impedes the freedoms of others. Do I refuse to pay my taxes? No. I pay my taxes to the authority God has placed over me, and I vote in every election to try to change the horrible path our country has taken. A government is always going to be corrupt because humans are corrupt. You will never find a government that is 100% godly until the second coming. It is our duty to serve God and the authority He has elected over us (that includes Obama, God placed Obama in the position he is in) with the understanding that should the authority of men contradict the authority of God, we will always fight on the side of God even if it means our lives. Now, when it comes to nation and friend, I would agree with TFJ. We fall on the side of God's law. _________________ 'Tis better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness. Especially if it's a candle that smells like Christmas!!!!

Author	Message
Eruntalon Site Admin Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Posts: 4488 Location: Velaré, Delfina	Post subject:
	Oh don't worry, I was not in the least saying not paying taxes, and etc.... In all probability what I wrote above is an overreaction to a perceived overemphasis on the part of general American Christianity at large. Case in point: After the Mass. election results (which I was glad of, btw), all of my Christian friends who hold the view that we need to be eminently involved in politics/patriotic, etc. had statuses and such like "God bless America for making the right decision", "God's party is back.", "His mercy endures" and in response to someone saying that God doesn't have a political party "The problem you have is that you have faith in PEOPLE and not God's son, Jesus. He is the one you should have faith in." My point is simply this: 1) Republicanism is not God's party, or the Christian party or anything else. 2) God does not have a political party. 3)Patriotism in the sense that it is modernly defined is nationlist. This was not necessarily the case in the 1700s...but it certainly is now. It is not a Christian idea. We need to be willing to die for Christ, not America, Russia, or any other country. This does not mean disobeying the government inasmuch as it is not asking us to disobey Torah. However, it also does not mean that we have to blindly support the government at all. If you look at Christ life, he was essentially un-involved with the government (Rome), and took no side on the matter. He does teach (when asked) that we should pay our taxes, but beyond this, it's really up to us. And if you look historically at God's people, there is a long history of standing seperate from the government. So, I'm doubting very much that we truly stand apart on this issue, and in all probability my above posts were overreactive (I tend to do that, as you know), but just know that my heart is not as far to one side as I may make it seem. But, in case you had any doubts, I will lay out my political views here: I am paleo-libertarian (of the Richard Maybury variety), law-abiding (and with a strong belief in law), and do believe in paying taxes. I do not believe in a draft, and would fight it, as it is unconsititutional. I belive national governments should be as small as possible, taxes should be minimal and only used to run the basic services (transportation, military). Ultimately, I would love to see a Swiss system of military militia (I believe this is closer to the original intent of the constitution). I do not believe major moral issues (abortion, gay marriage) should be solved by legislation, but instead by constitutional ammendment (so, I believe they did a good job with the gay marriage issue and civil rights, but not abortion), simply for the reason that legislation can be changed and rechanged with each new election, while ammendments are at least semi-permenant (they used to be much moreso). I do not believe in government programs. I do not agree with the existance of the IRS, or CIA constitutionally speaking....CIA is a little harder though...because it would be hard to live without it in today's world. I am a strong proponent of states rights, and think states should have the right to secede. I think getting involved in WWI was a bad idea, and in fact caused WWII. I am not as opposed to WWII, but think the way we got involved was not the best. There. My political beliefs in a nutshell...I am up for questions about them, but they are long and hard thought beliefs, and I'm not really in the mood to debate them at the moment (perhaps later). _________________ "I'm out of it for a little while, and everybody gets delusions of grandeur."